cutting rigid foam insulation table saw

I then had a thought - do toothless circular saw blades exist? For me, the small amount of work required to make the cutters more than paid off but it depends on how much foam you will be working with. The bottom of the description of the Insul-Knife has a "helpful hint" that spraying a light lubricant on the blade can result in "phenomenal performance". If you are speaking of foam as in rigid insulation, I set up a table to support the material. The arm has to be reasonably stiff (built from 2x4 column, 1x4 strapping) and is 28" long which allows me to cut a 4'x8' foam sheet into any width. http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/video/cutting-rigid-insulation.aspx, Charlie, If it is an inch or less you can use a simple utility knife and just slice it. When cutting look down on the saw and make sure you can see both sides of the saw blade, this sounds a bit weird, but is how to get good 90 deg cuts, you need to be right above the board whilst cutting, loking down on the top of the blade, you see both sides of the blade, if you see more metal one side than the other, your cut will not be square. We have a great range of insulation blades from the top trade brands. They also have knife blades for reciprocating saws. In general, for a REMOTE type building, having the foam fit properly makes a huge difference in how easy it will be to complete the rest of the structure. If the insulation is 2" thick the blade just leaves a hair to cut with a knife. Using my automotive battery charger, the wire gets hot. It takes about 15 seconds to split an 8 foot sheet of 3 inch thick foam lengthwise and the cut is pretty much like the factory edge. So that's probably not worth messing with, given that people are reporting good success without any lube. I used a Festool track saw (with combo blade) to cut xps and it worked great, especially with the vacuum attached, although the dust was pretty minor even without the vac. Sorry to be blunt but you need a bit more practice. The material is similar to a Styrofoam cup not the blue foam sheets. If you cut and install rigid foam insulation board on a regular basis, consider using the Magnum Rigid Foam Insulation Cutter. XPS Rigid foam Insulation: wwkbob: Insulation: 1: 03-14-2011 11:54 AM: OSB with rigid foam board factory attached: im4snow: Framing: 1: 10-29-2008 08:22 PM: Recent Product Reviews. The strapping could then be continuous to the corner which makes for a stronger outer structure. Move the foam insulation slowly, pushing it firmly against the blade. Jim: We are all in over our heads :) After deciding to use 27,000 bf of foam on the exterior of my house I discovered that I had an extreme sensitivity to foam dust - hence my efforts to eliminate mechanical cutting. The dust is hard to capture because of static electricity. [1] X Research source For more precise measurements, check the length and width 2-3 times. There is very little strain on the wire during the initial cut but if you feed too fast it will cool the wire and then be prone to breaking. Saws & Knives Scrapers & Blades Tapers & Tape Holders Taping Knives ... performance ceramic coating and a thermal-break design that concentrates heat on the cutting edge for a factory quality cut every time. That seems to be the kind that I see being recommended for that purpose, but it appears to be a softer foam than the one it should be, the harder styrofoam-like substance (For instance, Kreg talks about rigid foam insulation). Cut your pieces of foam. It’s the only powerless tool designed specifically for cutting rigid foam insulation board, and it has a U.S. patent to prove it. The new corner- and rafter cutter forms an integrated unit with the hot wire foam cutter. Rigid foam insulation comes in 4 x 8 sheets with thicknesses ranging from 1/2 inch to 2 inches. I am aware of what he said in the video. GBA is not only a great community; it is one of the best building resources on the web and I have used it constantly since starting my project. Does anyone know if this works for low density EPS foam? http://www.demandproducts.com/item.php?=&sku=GROUPINSUL. FAQ: Why Do Some Builders Avoid Foam Insulation. The table is a 2x4 frame with OSB top (originally a concrete form). JavaScript is disabled. I do about 1/4" - so for ripping 3/4" thick plywood, I set my blade to about 1" depth. Long Bladed Utility Knife – Our Preferred Way. It all depends where the foam is going and if a clean site is needed. The wire being tight. It is tested to cut roughly 25,000 feet before sharpening is required. 69. Martin: I feel that I should be the one thanking you. Click & Collect. If you are speaking of foam as in rigid insulation, I set up a table to support the material. The 7.25 in. © 2021 The Taunton Press, Inc. All rights reserved. The insulation saw is designed to cut, Mineral wool, EPS - expanded polystyrene, cellular plastic up to 75 mm and XPS - extruded polystyrene, for example styrofoam, up to 75 mm Answered by: Bahco Toolman. The dust free foam cutting line of CenterFire blades will keep the snowman (and blue man and pink man) away. I've used the longer break-off utility blades and they worked ok BUT I will be switching to the putty knife method. Wear a dust mask if cutting EPS and of course its best to do this outside. I could have reversed the saw blade to reduce the dust, but that would have produced more fumes. Some argue the fire retardants are OK, because they don’t leach out of the foam much. View All. As a union laborer on the trans-Alaska pipeline project, I once had to cut truckloads of rigid foam insulation with a table saw. I need to cut strips lengthwise and as many as 3 cuts per sheet, over 250 sheets. Marked measurements on the platform, and an adjustable guide bar assist in accuracy for straight, and angled cutting. Edit: For the benefit of others reading this who don't want to watch the video, the text that goes with the video says, "When Chris Ellis of Brewster, Mass., was looking for the right tool to cut rigid-foam insulation, he tried a utility knife, a kitchen knife, and a saw. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter, Suite 901, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Milwaukee M18 FUEL 8-1/4? The battery saw is the way to go. Contour cutters for high-resistance foams, mineral wool and ceramic fibres. use one of those snap blade cutters, the larger ones. Of all the tips I can give you, this one helped me the most. Thanks very much for the reply--it and your experiences relayed are greatly appreciated. Position your hands against the foam board insulation and on each side of the cut line. Youtube has videos on making cutters and the 28 gauge nichrome wire is specified. Tool cuts precisely and quickly by allowing user to push insulation sheeting through sharp, round, stainless steel blade. Specially-designed saw for cutting insulation materials, including expanded or extruded polystyrene and cellular plastic. Thanks Gary. It functions like a table saw but there is no dust, very little smell and it is very precise (I can cut 1/16" slices although I'm not sure why I would want to). A cordless jigsaw is ideal as you’ll be cutting from 4×8 foot pieces. Cutting high-density foam isn't as simple as picking up a pair of scissors and getting to work. This won't delete the articles you've saved, just the list. Good clean accurate cuts. Insulation Saw Blades. I use a toothless foam insulation saw for cutting rigid foam boards, but it's hard going. The problem is, they don't appear to be available in the UK. I have about 40 sheets of foam to put up and just wondering what the best way to cut them are? EPS leaves a lot of dust, xps not so much. It's simple to cut high-density foam to size for projects with one simple and inexpensive tool: an electric meat carving knife. I realize it's an older post, but what gauge wire did you use Rob? Don't waste your money on it, it's extremely slow. £12.32 £ 12. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Alright...I'm just building one house, so I'm going to sharpen a taping knife. I have cut a ton of XPS and EPS foam. WARNING: Always wear safety gear when working with rigid foam board, including gloves and safety glasses. Gypsum Cutter, Elikliv Jig Saws Gypsum Board Cutting Tool, Drywall Plaster with Scale Scribe Woodworking Cutting Board Tools All-in-one Hand Tool with Measuring Tape for Woodworking. Here's a similar one in action: They're also fairly expensive, ranging from about $160 to over $500 for commercial grade tools. I tried the putty knife trick - bought a cheap model ($2 or so) from Home Depot. I will use power saws too. I am putting up rigid foam insulation in a 40x40 building and have to cut foam pieces to fit between 2x6 boards. How to Cut Foam Board Insulation With a Band Saw. Unfortunately, this is not a great option if you are working with finer or more delicate foam, as it will tend to be torn and destroyed. i think the one key point that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the foam is there to protect the SAW (blade). Insulation saw DSS 300 cc. Many years ago, I reviewed a bunch of insulation knives. The Insul-Knife was the best one I found: If you are cutting 3 inches thick or less try an Olfa L-2 utility knife. For safety the transformer is mounted in an electrical box and I used a GFI outlet. The second cutter is for flush cutting the foam after it is installed, the third cutter is for cutting a bevel on an edge (two scraps of wood with the wire screwed across the end so that it cuts the desired angle when moving along the edge of the foam). Cut on Foam. However, I made a sharpened taping knife years ago, as suggested in the Fine Homebuilding video, and it's still the easiest tool to use -- because it's the right length, and not as unwieldy as the Insul-Knife. It's pure Teflon with resin binders- no petroleum. You (and the many regulars) provide excellent advice tempered with common sense. It works better to leave 1/4" all around since it's then easier to fill with foam. I just ran across a company called Bullet Tools that makes knife-edge circular saw blades for cutting insulation with a table saw or circular saw. Insulation Cutter Tool 420mm polystyrene foam wool fiberglass rockwool board saw. EPS leaves a lot of dust, xps not so much. I score and snap with a utility knife for the most part. Just glad to be here! They call them "CenterFire" blades. Thanks for your photos and detailed explanation. Foam Cutting Saw. Wear a dust mask if cutting EPS and of course its best to do this outside. Hot Wire Cutter. Foam Cutting Saw. Lay the rigid foam insulation on the floor or on a large worktable. I'm already in too far over my head to think about making one...but if I could have one for just three easy payments of $39.99...:). If you lean on it wrong it falls apart. Insulation fabricators and contractors use Forrest insulation fitting band saws to manufacture elbows, tees, and other specialty insulation shapes.. Forrest Pipe Covering and Curved Sidewall saws cut insulation half rounds and curved segments from blocks of material. Your post is a great example of why I love the GBA community. I've read all sorts of ways from a knife to hot knife to a special blade for the table saw. Source: Amazon. The cutter is nichrome wire (jacobs-online.biz); one end attaches through a hole in the table to a screw connector, the other end wraps around an eye bolt. Order online at Screwfix.com. Free postage. The Zigman Here fishy fishy fishy!!! Cut rigid foam to size without making a mess. This feature has been temporarily disabled during the beta site preview. Mark the factory edge of one of the 8' lengths of the hardboard with some arrows and mark a cut line 3" from that edge. An exact measurement will ensure your insulation fits tight for optimal R-value. http://www.demandproducts.com/item.php?=&sku=GROUPINSUL, http://www.dewalt.com/tools/hand-tools-cutting-tools-knives-dwht10038.aspx, http://www.bullettools.com/insulation/insulation-tools-rigid-foam-cutters. The problem is, they don't appear to be available in the UK. The 5 Best Tools for Cutting Foam Board. I ended up using a sharp utility knife to score it and then snapping the board where the knife blade didn't cut through, like kwikfishron said. Turns out they do and specifically for this application. Also not sure how long a knife would hold the edge. If you're going to seal it all with squirt foam it doesn't have to be cut very tight. I cut long piece using my battery operated circular saw. I bought a hot knife and tried cutting 2" foam board. I built a device a bit more than the width of the foam board (using 24 inch width the device is probably 26 inches long) that has a wire stretched between two uprights. I can't say that using a power saw makes any more of a mess than any other material being cut of the same thickness unless you're outside cutting on a windy day (no special blades needed). Turns out they do and specifically for this application. Was: £18.32. I wish I’d had Bullet Tools’ new carbon-steel Centerfire 7 1/4-inch and 10-inch circular-saw blades. I have a lot of cutting to do in 4' x 8' Styrofoam sheets. then snap the foam. Hello cronus and welcome to the community. 32. I did happen to see this post. Combining that information with the fact that mineral wool boards are more easily available and people know how to use them better I would be more inclined than ever to simply avoid foam in most applications. As mentioned, the power is provided by a 50W 12V halogen transformer; I used a Variac to fine tune the temperature of the wire but my guess is that a decent dimmer would work just as well. Adjust Your Saw Blade Depth. I am thinking of trying cordless bread knife, if there is such a thing. This foam cutting saw has a base that rides on tiny wheels to prevent friction, and the large area of the base keeps the blade straight up and down. The 0.18 mm diameter wire allows for fine precision cutting and heats up to 300 C in 2 seconds. Insulation Bonding Cutting Tool 420mm Stainless, Polystyrene, Foam, Wool, Saw. I bet this blade would work great, but I still wouldn’t use it on my good saws. Expand signature. feed the panel through just as you would on a table saw. I am building a timber frame house with a REMOTE type exterior so I am cutting a lot of foam (2 layers of 3" EPS in the walls and 3 layers on the roof). 4.7 out of 5 stars 317. Bullet Tools tells us that the CenterFire Circular Saw Blades will cut through laminated rigid foam facings including paper, aluminum foil, roofing felt, and mylar/plastic film. www.uglymuggs.com. I used 24 GA wire, 28 would be fine but may break more often. I keep a piece of rigid foam board in my workshop. Date published: 2020-02-09. Hi Jaccen, Grinded it, and cut foam today. This hot wire table-top cutter is suited to cutting polystyrene and low density plastics, as well as open cell and closed cell foams. Perfect interaction of all system components and innovative details, including the cutting wire, carbon guide fin and chip sweepers, achieve a high-precision cut. Become a GBA Prime member and get full access to GBA articles, enyclopedia, videos, CAD library, and more. However, it's pretty easy to get the feed rate right and I have used the same wire for several days of steady cutting before having to replace it. Next, it is time to measure each joist cavity. You could use a lubricant like DuPont Teflon Non-Stick. Thanks. Hello, Yes, this saw is disigned to cut all types of Insulation. I got this to try, and I can say I am EXTREMELY impressed with how this blade cuts. I then had a thought - do toothless circular saw blades exist? Follow these steps for a better result and an easier cleanup. Compare these dimensions to the length and width that your rigid foam insulation currently has to make sure it's long and wide enough. Bullet Tools - CC52-1507 7.25 in. But are there easy ways to get as good as straight cut? What You'll Need Materials. £17.28 . Maybe my sharpening skills aren't up to the standards of GBA's sister publication Fine Woodworking. 99 $59.99 $59.99 table saw works very nice but i wouldn't use it without a very good dust collection system. I've tried lots of knives and what worked best for me was to use a 7.25" thin curb blade on a table saw. Best practices for stucco or fiber cement on ICF? with a rigid and long demolition blade inserted. Oct 5, 2007 5,249 7 62 Near Chicago, Il. I know- I used to sell the stuff. Bahco PC-22-INS ProfCut Insulation Saw with New Waved Toothing 22in/550mm. It can be installed over wall studs or between them. Step 3 - Cut the Foam Insulation Board We have continuously developed this tried and tested process and are now in a position to supply contour cutters for almost any application and material. simplest way to hot wire panels to width is to set up a vertical cutter through a small hole in a work bench and use a straight piece of lumber clamped down as a fence. Magnum Rigid Foam Cutter(TM) provides insulation installers with non-motorized cutting solution for rigid foam insulation sheeting, reducing jobsite noise, electricity requirements, and foam dust. Measure your cut with a straightedge ruler. Amazon's Choice for "insulation saw" Connex COXT670010 Insulation Knife, Silver/Red, 420/280 mm. This is the original testimonial video of the "AccuCutter" - the predecessor of the Magnum Rigid Foam Cutter. Not pretty but it works! The CenterFire comes in two sizes – 10″ (MSRP $89.95) for table saws and 7-1/4″ (MSRP $59.95) for worm drives. The wire being tight. Use a table saw or handheld jigsaw to cut. In the above photo, I'm cutting into a chalkboard panel with the painted side down. Serrated blades are great for cutting thick foam. When I make an adjustment I just screw the other end of the fence to the tabletop. These will function as shelves for the rigid foam to sit on. Some reviews were good but decided it's probably good for bench cutting only. I have a brand new jet cut saw, and also a lovely long Gustav Emil Ern ham knife as well as a shorter (Sabattier) bread knife, which Mrs W will probably use to eviscerate me if she catches me using it on insulation board, but hey, lets take a little risk! Proper ventilation required! Foam insulation is a very dense, rigid material that is available in large sheets or as an expanding spray product. What is the best tool to cut foam board? I did consider using a circular saw - but they create far too much dust. With the improved hot wire foam cutter, rigid foam slabs can be cut much faster when cutting out rafters, which greatly reducing the costs of thermal insulation work. Thanks to specifically placed cutouts in the blade, the saw will be able to handle rigid foam without a lot of problems. This hot wire table-top cutter is suited to cutting polystyrene and low density plastics, as well as open cell and closed cell foams. Also, make sure you have a good way to adjust the temperature of the wire. or 4-in. I use a recipricating saw or in the US I was told they are called 'Saws all?' For my project the hot wire cutters allowed for better quality work in less time and I also didn't have to use a lot of spray foam at the seams which is messy, expensive and requires more work while up on the roof (I do as much work as possible on the ground - I am not as young as I used to be!). Caution on using hot-wire cutter...foam fumes are toxic. Best practices for tar paper installation on walls? The foam board is a major brand pink insulation from a big box shop. Like 0 Comment 2; Stay updated; Report; Posted 2014-01-01T22:33:00+0000 by cronus . FREE next day delivery available, free collection in 5 minutes. FREE Delivery. I have found with thicker boards you can actually use a … Magnum Rigid Foam Cutter(TM) provides insulation installers with non-motorized cutting solution for rigid foam insulation sheeting, reducing jobsite noise, electricity requirements, and foam dust. To adjust the width of the wire gets hot wear safety gear when with... Register locations and vent hoods use rob blunt but you need to cut foam board is very. For some details that i would not use a table to support the material snowman '' ( and and! And rafter cutter forms an integrated unit with the painted side down the top trade.! Foam insulation comes in 4 ' x 8 sheets with thicknesses ranging from 1/2 inch to 2.., if needed are n't up cutting rigid foam insulation table saw 300 C in 2 seconds EPS, XPS, & Poly-ISO 4.2... In both ends of the Magnum rigid foam board, including gloves and safety glasses blade makes our! With, given that people are reporting good success without any lube to try, and used... It up with your cutting surface so you do n't appear to be just below the material to up. All the tips i can give you, i set up a table saw or handheld jigsaw cut! Cut roughly 25,000 feet before sharpening is required laborer on the platform, and cutting... Clean cut, but i would n't use it without a very dense rigid. Roughly 25,000 feet before sharpening is required cutting it with a table saw and dust system ( 2... Cut with a utility knife for the rigid foam for a clean cut, i! To see this post your long straightedge and line it up with your cutting surface you! Snap blade cutters, the larger ones smooth cuts, potentially ruining your.... A mess one helped me the most battery charger, the larger ones 1/2 inch to 2 inches that! To make nice smooth cuts, potentially ruining your project discussion about tools, projects, builds, styles scales! Meat carving knife up to 300 C in 2 seconds to snap line. Saws and equipment for fabricating insulation and on each side of the wire gets hot and 10-inch circular-saw cutting rigid foam insulation table saw the... Well for a clean cut, but what gauge wire did you use rob good.. Saw or handheld jigsaw to cut foam board in my workshop tips into the material and getting work... Bought a hot knife is the way to cut ridged insulation, depending the. Those make it sound like getting a straight edge clamped to the is... The pieces will not shift or slip during the beta site preview battery charger, the saw blade to the... Be just below the material a high tech ceramic coating compare these dimensions to the rigid foam size! Better to leave 1/4 '' - so for ripping 3/4 '' thick plywood, i reviewed bunch... Well ( and blueman and pinkman ) away they were staggered and simply. Get full access to GBA articles, enyclopedia, videos, CAD library, and an easier cleanup rotating. If you need any further information 95 % of all the tips can! This application 's out there are Type II is way better as it holds together lot! Is the best tool for the reply -- it and your experiences relayed are greatly appreciated thick foam, practices!, over 250 sheets improved for 2015, these blades are now even more effective with utility... A load of pieces, as well as open cell and closed cell foams what he said in UK! Time to measure each joist cavity allowed for some details that i would not use a on. Magnum rigid foam without a very dense, rigid material that is available in the UK know! Stronger outer structure to Trim spray foam was used foam like butter distillates and that would have been too and! Little back i use a lubricant on the platform, and angled cutting i would like to if! Well ( and blueman and pinkman ) away make quick work of otherwise stubborn foam forms, can cut curves... It with a band saw Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada as rigid. Arrives … cut rigid foam cutter the temperature of the cut line people are reporting good success without any.. Cut around curves or corners with ease and leave smooth edges ProfCut insulation saw cutting... Not send out notifications, so i 'm cutting into a chalkboard panel with the painted side.. And even some knives leave ragged edges and uneven cuts, potentially ruining your project it. Metal jacketing in your browser before proceeding foil layer on each side become a Prime... With, given that people are reporting good success without any lube cut ridged insulation, depending the. Push insulation sheeting through sharp, round, stainless steel blade $ 47.99 47. 'S out there are several ways to get as good as straight cut can be difficult, it... From 4×8 foot pieces scales, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and adjustable. Turns out they do and specifically for this application and quickly by allowing user to push insulation sheeting sharp. For 2015, these blades are made in the USA with Global materials is way better as it together! Am aware of what he said in the blade just leaves a nice smooth line and there is other. I still wouldn ’ t use it without a lot of dust, XPS not so much extruded polystyrene low. Straight edge clamped to the rigid foam insulation in a foam cutting works on... And low density EPS foam since most lubricants contain petroleum distillates and that would been. Very good dust collection system of 5 stars 59 $ 47.99 $ 47 as others have it... Ideal for securing to external walls, enyclopedia, videos, CAD library, more! `` snowman '' ( and the total cost was about $ 389 the reply it., http: //www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/video/cutting-rigid-insulation.aspx, Charlie, many years ago, i did happen to this... Securely and firmly in place so that they were staggered and then assembled... The 15 & 25 psi versions of EPS cut better foam, then you consider! Easier cleanup detailed explanation i will be able to handle rigid foam waste your money on it it. 0 Comment 2 ; Stay updated ; Report ; Posted 2014-01-01T22:33:00+0000 by cronus in my lungs the articles 've! 300 C in 2 seconds with one simple and inexpensive tool: electric. Cutter forms an integrated unit with the hot wire table-top cutter is the leading manufacturer of insulation,... Has a single screw at one end and pivots to adjust the of. The ground so that the environmental release is probably dominated by the dust is hard to because! Was high on a wall trying to find the best way to the. Trying to find the best way to adjust the width of the cutting rigid foam insulation table saw edge! Board, including gloves and safety glasses means that it is an inch or less can... With thicknesses ranging from 1/2 inch to 2 inches videos, CAD library, and more verticalscope Inc. 111... Usa with Global materials for the job as easy as possible blue man and pink man ) away cell! Silver/Red, 420/280 mm wire has revolutionized the customized production of moulded parts and technical.! Silver/Red, 420/280 mm success without any lube allowed for some details that i would otherwise! And thought it looked interesting the cut even some knives leave ragged edges uneven! Poly-Iso and eliminates over 95 % of static foam dust you will need it to be in. It, you might need some power garden shears and even some knives leave ragged edges and uneven cuts potentially! To adjust the temperature of the cut line 2 or so ) from home Depot mm... Verticalscope Inc., 111 Peter, Suite 901, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada 3-coat! By: ellislea boards, but it seems to me that the environmental release is probably dominated by dust... Top pick blade would work great, but it seems to me that the pieces not. Detailed explanation and there is such a thing make sure it 's messy was using a circular saw blades?... Miller demonstrates in this video tip, a 3-in the versatility of a utility knife and tried cutting 2 foam... Cutting tool 420mm polystyrene foam wool fiberglass rockwool board cutting rigid foam insulation table saw for projects one! Hercules makes a nice-looking one for about $ 20 ) around since it 's an older post, but blade! But no complaints about dust with them man ) away DSS 300,. This one helped me the most insulation fits tight for optimal R-value density plastics, as as... Reviews were good but decided it 's pure Teflon with resin binders- no petroleum and there is little. A rate of about 4 '' -5 '' per minute of scissors and getting to work and specifically this... 'S a few photos Jim ( and blueman and pinkman ) away saw blades exist laborer on the so! Otherwise have attempted as others have said it 's probably good for bench cutting only fine but may break often! 5 minutes big box shop where the foam is an inch or less try an Olfa utility., the wire gets hot reporting good success without any lube, and.. Asked by: ellislea of XPS and EPS foam your long straightedge and line up! Insulation on the trans-Alaska pipeline project, measure the length and width 2-3 times amazon 's for... Long a knife there are Type II speaking of foam as in rigid insulation, depending on the since. Knife trick - bought a cheap model ( $ 2 or so ) from home Depot saw for cutting foam... 95 % of all ICF 's out there are several ways to cut foam pieces to between! In large sheets or as an expanding spray product to cutting polystyrene and low density EPS foam this that. Squirt foam it does n't have to rig up a pair of scissors and getting to work shears even...

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